Talk 647

15th March, 1939

D: Is not what Gandhiji describes, the state in which thoughts themselves become foreign?

M: Yes, It is only after the rise of the ‘I’ thought that all other thoughts arise. The world is seen after you have felt “I am”. The ‘I-thought’ and all other thoughts had vanished for him.

D: Then the body-sense must be absent in that state.

M: The body-sense also is a thought whereas he describes the state in which “thoughts do not come”.

D: He also says, “It takes no effort to stop thinking”.

M: Of course no effort is necessary to stop thoughts whereas one is necessary for bringing about thoughts.

D: We are trying to stop thoughts. Gandhiji also says that thought is an obstacle to God’s guidance. So it is the natural state. Though natural, yet how difficult to realise. They say that sadhanas are necessary and also that they are obstacles. We get confused.

M: Sadhanas are needed so long as one has not realised it. They are for putting an end to obstacles. Finally there comes a stage when a person feels helpless notwithstanding the sadhanas. He is unable to pursue the much-cherished sadhana also. It is then that God’s Power is realised. The Self reveals itself.

D: If the state is natural, why does it not overcome the unnatural phases and assert itself over the rest?

M: Is there anything besides that? Does anyone see anything besides the Self? One is always aware of the Self. So It is always Itself.

D: It is said, because It shines forth, It is directly perceived. I understand from it that It becomes pratyaksha (directly perceived), because It is pradeepta (shining). Since it is not realised by us, I take it to be not shining. It is only pradeepta (shining), and hence admits of obstacles and goes under them. If the atma becomes prakarshena deepta, (very shining) it will shine over the rest. So it seems to be necessary to make it shine more.

M: How can it be so? The Atma cannot be dull at one moment and blazing at another. It is unchanging and uniform.

D: But Chudala says to Sikhidhvaja that she simply helped to trim the wick.

M: That refers to nididhyasana.

By sravana, Knowledge dawns. That is the flame.

By manana, the Knowledge is not allowed to vanish. Just as the flame is protected by a wind-screen, so the other thoughts are not allowed to overwhelm the right knowledge.

By nididhyasana, the flame is kept up to burn bright by trimming the wick. Whenever other thoughts arise, the mind is turned inward to the light of true knowledge.

When this becomes natural, it is samadhi. The enquiry “Who am I?” is the sravana. The ascertainment of the true import of ‘I’ is the manana. The practical application on each occasion is nididhyasana. Being as ‘I’ is samadhi.

D: Although we have heard it so often and so constantly yet we are unable to put the teaching into practise successfully. It must be due to weakness of mind. Is it possible that one’s age is a bar?

M: The mind is commonly said to be strong if it can think furiously. But here the mind is strong if it is free from thoughts. The yogis say that realisation can be had only before the age of thirty, but not the jnanis. For jnana does not cease to exist with age.

It is true that in the Yoga Vasishta, Vasishta says to Rama in the Vairagya Prakarana “You have this dispassion in your youth. It is admirable.” But he did not say that jnana cannot be had in old age. There is nothing to prevent it in old age.

The sadhak must remain as the Self. If he cannot do so, he must ascertain the true meaning of the ‘I’ and constantly revert to it whenever other thoughts arise. That is the practice.

Some say that one must know the ‘tat’ because the idea of the world constantly arises to deflect the mind. If the Reality behind it is first ascertained it will be found to be Brahman. The ‘tvam’ is understood later. It is the jiva. Finally there will be jivabrahmaikya (union of the two).

But why all this? Can the world exist apart from the Self? The ‘I’ is always Brahman. Its identity need not be established by logic and practice. It is enough that one realises the Self. It is always the Brahman.

According to the other school, nididhyasana will be the thought Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahman). That is diversion of thought to Brahman. No diversion should be allowed. Know the Self and there is an end of it.

No long process is necessary to know the Self. Is it to be pointed out by another? Does not everyone know that he exists? Even in utter darkness when he cannot see his hand, he answers a call and says “I am here”.

D: But that ‘I’ is the ego or the ‘I-thought’ and it is not the Absolute Self that answers the call or is otherwise aware of oneself.

M: Even the ego can become aware of itself in the absence of light, sight, etc. Much more so should be the Pure Light of the Self.

I am saying that the Self is self-evident. One need not discuss the tattvas to find the Self. Some say there are twenty-four tattvas, others more and so on. Should we know the tattvas, before we admit the existence of the Self? The sastras dilate upon them in order to point out that the Self is untouched by them. But for the seeker he can straightaway admit the Self and try to be That, without having recourse to the study of the tattvas.

D: Gandhiji adhered to satya (Truth) so long and won realisation of the Self.

M: What is satya except the Self? Satya is that which is made up of sat. Again sat is nothing but the Self. So Gandhiji’s satya is only the Self.

Each one knows the Self but is yet ignorant. The person is enabled to realise only after hearing the mahavakya. Hence the Upanishadic text is the eternal Truth to which everyone who has realised owes his experience. After hearing the Self to be the Brahman the person finds the true import of the Self and reverts to it whenever he is diverted from it. Here is the whole process of Realisation.